How Books Are Made

Children's illustration, skills and tools

Since 2014, children’s book publisher Book Dash has printed over a million free books for children, including tens of thousands illustrated by Jess Jardim-Wedepohl – which makes her one of the most widely distributed children’s book illustrators in the country.

Jess makes the monumental task of illustrating an entire book in a day seem perfectly normal. In this episode, Arthur and Jess talk about Book Dash, how she approaches book design and illustration, what it’s like to work under pressure, and what she reckons are important skills for young designers and illustrators who want to make books.

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This episode was published on 15 August 2020.
Supported by Electric Book Works: publishing reinvented for the digital age.

Transcript

Arthur Attwell 0:04
Hello, and welcome to How Books Are Made, a podcast about the art and science of making books. I’m Arthur Attwell.

Arthur Attwell 0:20
Back in 2014, I got to be part of something miraculous: starting a children’s book publisher that makes gorgeous books and then gives them away. That publisher is Book Dash, an organization I co-founded with my wife, Michelle and friend Tarryn-Anne Anderson. Book Dash gathers creative professionals to create new picture books in a single 12-hour day. They’re all volunteers and everything they create is a gift to the world. Creating a book in 12 hours is kind of insane. But it turns out that if you suck every wasted moment out of a publishing shedule, refine your systems and choose exactly the right people, it is possible. Not only possible, but the books themselves are really remarkable. In fact, if you’re not driving right now, go to bookdash.org and have a look, before you listen to any more. Seriously, you should pause this. That’s bookdash.org and then just click ‘Books’ at the top. Okay?

Arthur Attwell 1:24
So. It’s a big deal to get selected for a Book Dash, and someone we’ve called on a full six times to illustrate for us is just Jess Jardim-Wedepohl. Jess manages to make the monumental task of illustrating an entire book in a day seem completely normal. She’s one of those people who probably isn’t even aware of just how much she’s had to learn and practice. Or she’s just too humble and down-to-earth to say. Since 2014, Book Dash has printed over a million free books for children, including tens of thousands of books that Jess illustrated, which makes her one of the most widely distributed children’s book illustrators in the country. Now, I’ve been lucky to watch Jess at work at Book Dash events, and see scenes and characters appear on her screen as if by magic. But, I know that nothing in publishing really happens by magic. There is hard-won craft at work there. So I wanted to speak to Jess, to find out more about how she approaches book design and illustration, what it’s like to work under that kind of pressure, and what she reckons are important skills for young designers and illustrators who want to make books.

Arthur Attwell 2:37
Jess, it is so great to talk to you. For people who don’t know, you and I have collaborated on children’s books at Book Dash. I want to talk about Book Dash later, but right now, what are you working on at the moment?

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 2:52
So this might actually be a surprise to you, because I don’t share a lot of my current work on social media or anything like that. For the last one year minus three days I’ve been working at Get Smarter, which is an edtech startup in Cape Town that was acquired by 2U, which is a global edtech umbrella company, about two or three years ago. So yeah, I do still illustrate freelance occasionally in my spare time but the majority of my time at the moment is spent designing course graphics for universities overseas, which is something of a change of pace.

Arthur Attwell 3:26
That’s really cool. That’s another company that must be, I hope, doing quite well. They’re a good crew. I’ve known the Get Smarter crew for a very long time, but you must be busy there.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 3:34
Ja no, it’s been amazing. Before I started at Get Smarter, I was fulltime freelance illustrating for a lot of sort of advertising clients and then the occasional book job. Prior to that I was in advertising and social media for about three years.

Arthur Attwell 3:51
Yes, because you worked at an agency and then kind of transitioned to working independently and more and more as an illustrator specifically.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 3:59
Yeah, it was a bit of a wild ride. There’s a, so I was at Nicework for about three years right at the beginning of my career. Then I took a little break. It was like only a month and a half or so to travel for a while, came back, worked at Cerebra, which is a social media agency who has now been acquired by Wunderman, for six months or so. Then I was the marketing manager at City Rock, the climbing gym, for about six months. There was a point in between there where I had a mild nervous breakdown about not wanting to work in advertising anymore, which would be embarrassing if I hadn’t documented it extensively on my blog.

Arthur Attwell 4:35
It’s a great post. I have read it. It’s fantastic.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 4:38
(LAUGHS) Thank you. So you know I cried in the bathroom at McCann Erickson and then ran away. After City Rock, it was sort of the palate cleanser I needed to start moving back into the type of work I was doing before. After about six months at City Rock I was lucky enough to be connected with Stephen Hobbs from the Trinity Session, which is a public art collective that operates in Johannesburg. They do a lot of consulting and organization for public art projects in the city of Joburg. They have a very heavy focus on involving people who live in the communities they operate in with the art that they’re installing. So if you see them putting up a mural, or a sculpture or anything like that, there’s usually been about a year or more of very extensive collaboration with artists who live in the community. I sort of helped them out with that, kind of developing a visual application for projects that they’re working on. So for instance, they’ll need a sculpture, but then they’ll speak to like a nursery school that operates in the area and have the children do drawings. Then you have to figure out how to translate a bunch of wax crayon illustrations to a concrete sculpture of a certain size. It’s been a, it was a real mixed bag of freelance before I started at Get Smarter. Now I still freelance on the side. But I because I now have a fulltime job I have the luck to be very selective about the clients I work with now, because it’s not 100% of my livelihood.

Arthur Attwell 6:01
That’s fantastic. I love the story about how your Book Dash volunteering connected you to people, it led on to other books as well. It’s one of our favorite things at Book Dash to know that Book Dash connects people.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 6:16
Well, if I could take anything away from the experience is that when I have spoken to groups of students before it’s been to just, have a business card with you at any point, just in case, because I have extremely vivid memories of my first Book Dash of all time, being out of my mind with stress trying to illustrate this entire watercolour book in 12 hours, and having Sarah who gave me my first published book come up and ask me if I had a business card and have to sort of like write down my number for her on a scrap of paper and hope to God that you would remember who I was and why she had it.

Arthur Attwell 6:49
Was the book that came out of that, Charlie and B?

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 6:52
Yes, that’s right.

Arthur Attwell 6:52
Fantastic. It’s such a such a gorgeous book.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 6:55
Thank you.

Arthur Attwell 6:57
I want to talk about the Book Dash experience, and specifically about what I still think is one of the most amazing pieces of book-making I’ve ever seen, which was you illustrating and designing a book in a day at Book Dash. But first, let’s set the scene. So I want to just describe a normal Book Dash, and then we’ll describe what that particular day was like for you.

Arthur Attwell 7:21
So we’re in a room of about 40 people, and they’re each working in teams. Each team has a writer, an illustrator, and a designer. Each team is going to produce finished children’s book in 12 hours, which seems kind of insane until you actually do it at a Book Dash, and it actually works, which is pretty amazing. Then the books that everyone creates are shared freely online. They’re also printed and given away to children. Actually I should mention right now that Book Dash has given away tens of thousands of your books, so that’s really pretty amazing. So you’ve been a big, big part of a lot of children’s lives. As I said, normally those teams are three people, writer, illustrator, and designer. But on that one day, I think we were one person short, and you felt you could handle two roles, designer and illustrator. Just tell me a bit more about what it’s like to create a Book Dash book, and what that particular day was like?

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 8:20
I think it was a definite exercise in humility for me, because what had happened is that we did have a team of three set up as usual. Then Julia contacted me, I think, literally, maybe a day and a half before the Dash and said, like, We’re really sorry, we have to take your designer away because someone else has dropped at the last minute. At that point, counting on my hands here, I think at that point, I’d done three Book Dashes already as an illustrator. It was probably for that reason that you guys thought I could maybe handle it, because you’d see me handle the illustration workload. I definitely went into it feeling a little bit cocky, because my team on the third Book dash that I did, which was My Special Hair had just worked really well. We all gelled extremely well together, very, very minimal changes, everyone was in a great mood and sort of riding that high. I think we literally finished our entire book about two hours early. We were sitting outside drinking wine while everybody else was in crunch time.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 9:23
So when you guys asked me to come in and do design and illustration on the same book on the same day, I was sort of like, Oh, well, you know, it worked out fine last time, I can totally handle this. It’s a point of pride for me at every Book Dash that if I am stressing out, I will never show it on the surface because I know that it’s a very stressful situation for the guys organizing, you’re trying to get everything done on time, and there’s people who are there for the first time who are kind of looking to people who’ve done the experience before to see if they should be panicking. So I’m usually very level headed, chilling out. That Book Dash where I was doing two roles in one day, I think it was the first time I’ve ever snapped at anyone who came to check on me, and then I felt so awful afterwards. But yeah, I think it’s, I think that book turned out really well. It was, I was lucky in that respect that the author of What’s at the Park?, Dave Mann, and I knew each other from working in the ad industry and adjacent industries before that. So there wasn’t a lot of get-to-know-you time, we just sort of said, Oh, yay, it’s you, and then got down to business, which really helped.

Arthur Attwell 10:27
So when you’re preparing for a Book Dash, what are the pieces of the puzzle that you want to get in place before you get there in the morning, in your, in your kind of workspace and your tools and so on.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 10:40
In terms of like mental preparation, I try very hard not to commit to any kind of imagery, sometimes because the book can change relatively substantially in the first round of edit, which only occurs on the day. So just in terms of picturing like, exactly what things are going to look like, I try not to get too married to anything, although I generally will come with a prep character design for the main character or characters.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 11:04
Then just generally sort of chatting very colloquially to the designer and author, not even about the book, just to kind of get a feel for their type of personality, because I think you really need to get to know each other a little bit beforehand, so that there’s no clashes on the day that you feel like you can’t resolve just in terms of working together, because it’s already so stressful. I would say like trying to get a style mentally nailed down is important, although at this point, sort of by like the time of My Special Hair, I’d really figured out what style was, you know, easy to do really quickly and look as complete as possible. So that level of preparation has kind of fallen away, the more Book Dashes I’ve done, because I can just lapse back into quote unquote, Book Dash style every time.

Arthur Attwell 11:49
You seem to be perennially prepared. I love watching illustrators work and you are a prime example of someone who is sitting there you’re working if I remember it into a tablet, but with a dizzying array of brushes, and, obviously, colour palettes and backgrounds that you seem to just know so well almost like an extension of your pencil. What goes into creating that palette of brushes and everything else and being familiar with them?

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 12:22
I mean, I think the nice thing about that Book Dash style is that it’s so easy to work in, I say the Book Dash style, my Book Dash style. The nice thing about the fact that it’s so easy to work in is that it’s also the style I default to and I’m just drawing for fun at home by myself. So a lot of the finessing of like working with specific brushes and stuff like that really just comes from kind of an inherent sense of familiarity that you kind of develop by accident if you lapse into the same style all the time. I will say like the brushes, well, the brush that I use, there is one brush. It’s Kyle Webster’s ultimate pastel brush that comes standard with Photoshop and it works perfectly at multiple sizes. It’s one of those things that I’m sure other illustrators will know exactly what I’m talking about where there’s a lot of Photoshop brushes that look beautiful at a certain point size but if you try to scale them very high up or down, they kind of break. That specific brush style is really nice, the Kyle Webster one that I use, because I can just be have the same brush set up all day and just keep resizing it because it works really well no matter what size it is.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 13:27
What I have started doing, especially with The Great Tidy Up where we knew that the narrative of the book would require a lot of the spreads to look quite populated and chaotic, when we didn’t necessarily have time to draw a lot of props, is sitting at home the day before and making a bunch of very scribbly chaotic-looking backgrounds that could be re-coloured on the fly and swapped out by the designer, not me. So that that would leave extra time to be drawing characters, because we also had a book with basically three main characters in it, which is kind of Book Dash suicide.

Arthur Attwell 14:00
That’s the thing, each character, you’ve got to really get to know well enough to be able to illustrate them doing pretty much anything. Times that by three and things get really hairy on the day.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 14:11
It also does depend on what action is taking place in the book because like for instance, with Unathi and the Dirty, Smelly Beast, she’s basically standing and walking the whole time. So I basically had a character model prep where all of her limbs were on different layers and then just re-posed her and re-drew her face every time. But with something like The Great Tidy Up, they needed to be doing actual activities like washing clothes and hanging things and running around, so the characters really did need to be completely redrawn for most of the spreads. I think we really went into that book with a lot of high ambition. I mean, it worked out well but I sort of made things very difficult for myself in a lot of ways.

Arthur Attwell 14:49
Am I right that your very first Book Dash, when you did Is There Anyone Like Me, that was it right? Was that done in physical media? I don’t remember you working digitally that one.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 15:00
It was watercolour, I don’t think it was a conscious decision either. I think what happened was partly because I didn’t have a very reliable tablet setup at the time. So I wasn’t super confident doing the whole thing digitally, even though I knew in some way that it would be faster. But also, like, I’m sure you know the process, but for people who don’t, to be involved in a Book Dash, even though it’s a volunteer thing, and sort of, like the volunteers are helping you it’s like a very competitive process where you have to submit your portfolio of books you’ve worked on before and what your illustrations look like and kind of prove yourself in a way that you can handle an ask like that. I hadn’t done a lot of professional illustration before I signed up for Book Dash. I got accepted on a portfolio that if I remember correctly, was a lot of physical drawings. So I think the worry was that I had kind of applied to participate based on what my watercolour work looked like, and if I rocked up with a tablet, you guys were gonna, like, get mad and send me home. (LAUGHS) Like, well, I guess I’m doing this book in watercolour then.

Arthur Attwell 16:03
Wow, yeah, you made your own life hard that day. I think that we now see most illustrators at Book Dashes are using tablets, fewer and fewer use watercolour or any other kind of physical media. Do you reckon that illustrators generally are just becoming more accustomed to working digitally? Do you think that’s a really necessary skill for young illustrators?

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 16:27
Yeah, it’s definitely part of it, and unfortunately, that is the case. I think especially in book illustrations, specifically, it really does save a lot of time if you can work fast in a digital setting. Also, if you’re working as a young illustrator in South Africa, and you want to start into, like creating books for international publishers, you’re going to need to be able to become familiar with the digital workspace. There are like illustrators overseas who have been working for a very long time who do work exclusively in physical media and it can be done. But I think also working in illustration, in South Africa, you will be more likely to end up working in things like advertising and social media as opposed to illustrating books. The nature of the beast there is that if you, for instance, do an illustration for a digital campaign, it needs to be able to be printed as a billboard and a half pager in a newspaper and also used as a Facebook banner, and you might need to move elements around and resize them, which is also a big part of the Book Dash illustration process is being able to reuse things on multiple spreads, which is just a much more of a learning curve to do in terms of creating a physical painting and scanning it and cutting things out and touching up a scan and moving things around. It’s a pity because it’s really nice to see young, up-and-coming illustrators becoming very proficient in, for instance, one type of physical media, but it’s going to be harder to get hired if you’re not very versatile and pretty well versed already in working on a computer.

Arthur Attwell 18:01
What do you reckon are things you wish you’d known a while back about working digitally that illustrators just starting out might find really useful?

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 18:10
I think just in terms of very practical stuff, understanding the different kinds of colour space. This is like a very nerdy answer. We did learn it when I was in design college, where RGB is for screen and CMYK is for print, and then you get a couple of other colour spaces that work better for things like designing for gaming, but things like that I sort of glossed over when we were in college, because I was like, ah, you know, they’ll, I’ll figure this out as I go along. I think what’s happening now a lot with the advent of things like Procreate, and other tablet apps where kids are learning to draw digitally at like the age of 14, is that they get very, very proficient in artwork, but then they have no idea how to set their artwork up in such a way that it will print correctly. It’s sort of like a weird little thing, but it’s a very big deal where if you, for instance, get into a job in a more commercial advertising centered role based on the merit of your portfolio rather than having gone to design college, then you don’t know what you don’t know. You can, for instance, end up accidentally creating work at 72 DPI RGB, which is a digital colour space and sizing and then you find out it needs to be printed and have to redo it completely.

Arthur Attwell 19:19
Yeah, we’ve had guys at Book Dash where an illustrator has got quite far on the day and then realized that they haven’t allowed for bleed, but they’re working in a raster format, and they, now their files are literally, like resolution-wise or size-wise off and can’t be used. So yeah, it’s really important to understand that stuff. I mean, I remember as a young editor-publisher, going on tours of printing companies, and realizing that there’s a whole area of science and art around turning digital signals into paper, coloured paper, that was just so deep and complex and really, really interesting too, at least, for publishing nerds like you and I.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 20:01
I think especially in a South African context, it’s very frustrating for young people who want to get into kind of artwork as a job, because it’s so expensive to study, and the majority of people in this country are not in the position to get an entire degree in illustration or design before they start working. There almost needs to be like a six week finishing school where it’s sort of like, Okay, well, you can learn to draw at home, that is a skill that you can develop entirely independently, but here are the things you need to know if you want to actually do it for a living, and come onto the playing field with the same level of knowledge as someone who has got a four year degree and knows all of this stuff.

Arthur Attwell 20:39
One of the things that I find quite exciting at the moment is the growing number of design software, applications and choices that designers have, many of which are free. For a time, you could really only do design work in Illustrator and Photoshop. Now, those options seem to be growing. What do you reckon are kind of great options for a designer who might not be able to afford a monthly Adobe Creative Cloud subscription, but wants to work digitally, in design or in illustration?

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 21:09
I’m probably not the best person for this because I do you still have a Creative Cloud subscription and I haven’t branched out too much. But I will say, my husband lectured at The Animation School in Rosebank for about a year, and they are quite committed to teaching their students about apps that are open source or completely free, because they do understand the challenges of not being able to pay for expensive software. So I’ll tell you from that experience, that he had that for digital painting Krita, is a really good option as an open source digital painting app. I’ve seen a lot of people online using it as well. But I think anything, I mean, GIMP is picking up. I think we used it as an alternative to Photoshop when I was in college, when it was just starting to become popular, and it was still very clunky. But I only hear good things about it now. And then I mean, there’s 3D design alternatives like Blender as well, which is just incredible these days. I also, I played around in it a little bit in college. It’s basically completely equivalent now to Maya or Cinema 4D, or any of the other 3D apps that you pay a lot of money for.

Arthur Attwell 22:13
One of the things that you seem to do really easily is span illustration and design headspaces, and they’re quite, I see them as quite distinct modes of creativity. At Book Dash, obviously, you’ve had opportunities to combine them. Do you think that they are for you different headspaces, do you go into your design headspace versus into your illustration headspace?

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 22:36
I think I have had the benefit of working for a long time in a very commercial space. I think it’s worked out better for me than for instance, if someone studied pure illustration, or maybe fine art and then tried later to move their art in a more commercial direction. So starting out in a world where the artwork you have to do to do your job has a lot of boundaries and corporate style guides and stuff like that means that you work within limitations, but still as creatively as you possibly can, especially if you are a very recently graduated student who is just desperate to make cool stuff but then you have to do it in like the Absa colours or whatever. So I think that has really helped.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 23:16
I think it has hampered me creatively a little bit, definitely, because I for a very long time found it difficult to sit down and just draw for fun without having a brief. Like, I have to have some kind of project structure, I can’t just sit and draw pretty pictures. I know there’s a lot of people who can just do that, and I’m very jealous of them. But it does help in terms of illustrating for work, to be able to go relatively seamlessly between illustration and design and back again, and look at them as part of the same whole.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 23:45
What we did a lot when I was at Nicework especially is that, you know, it’s easier to hire a lot of very creative people and then teach them to work within boundaries than it is to teach people who are very good at boundaries, how to be creative. So Nicework was staffed by a lot of people with very strong illustration portfolios, who were very interested in more experimental design work. When you did have the opportunity and had a client come in and go like, Okay, well we need to work on this sort of coffee table book type of thing we’re doing for our investors, and there’s like a style guide, but there’s not, then everyone would sort of jump on the project and go like, Oh, well, you need illustrations! And usually they did. It was interesting to, for instance, be an illustrator who’d worked in sort of like a very zine, kind of crunchy avant garde style, and then kind of pitch clients like, Maybe you need some cool watercolours for your annual report, and then have to be able to do that still within the boundaries of this style guide, but also make it look good and satisfy your desire to be creative about it. So yeah, I think for a while there, I felt like I was being stifled by working in advertising, but it really has helped me kind of create within a box if I need to do that.

Arthur Attwell 24:51
I was having a look at the ICC report that you were part of at Nicework and that looked really beautiful. It looked like you really brought some creative page layouts to that book.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 25:01
I loved that one. Thank you. I think that was also an example of a job where it could have been a very boring layout, but the client was really enthusiastic about making it a very beautiful and interesting design. So the guy who we were working with was just extremely open to like, kind of breaking the layout occasionally, and just, you know, using colours in an interesting way. I really appreciated that. I think that job came in when I’d been working in industry for maybe two years. It felt very rare at the time to work with a sort of corporate-ey minded client, who was willing to experiment like that with us.

Arthur Attwell 25:41
I also wanted to talk about the digital book projects you’ve worked on. To start with, the Snapplify classics covers, those are really beautiful book covers. Tell me more about that project?

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 25:51
Thank you. So what essentially happened is that Snapplify has a library section on their platform with ebooks that are completely free, which I think is really smart because being a South African platform, people aren’t as sold on the idea of ebooks, as they are internationally. So the idea of going like, Okay, well, if you download the app, there’s all these free books here … It’s things that are in the public domain via projects like Project Gutenberg. It’s sort of a bit of a draw card where people download the app, and then they have it on their phone for all the free books and they start seeing like new fiction coming out, and maybe they’ll buy a few.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 26:26
So the obviously the main issue there was that Project Gutenberg has just thousands of titles, and Snapplify wanted to make all of them available, but just the, the sheer level of budget alone to illustrate covers for each individual book would have been completely astronomical. The problem with classics like the ones on Project Gutenberg is that the text is public domain, but the original cover illustrations are not. So we sort of needed to come up with a plan where I could create 10 covers, and one would be for fiction, one would be for Shakespeare, one would be for poetry, one would be for kind of sciency, nonfiction, that type of thing, and then they could be applied to any book in that category and staff on Snapplify’s design team could just change the name and the author and that would be enough. That was a really fun one to work on, like obviously the ones for sort of science, nonfiction and business books are sort of more generic stock illustration looking things. But then specifically for the poetry, fiction, Shakespeare, children’s categories, I had a lot of fun sort of putting a whole bunch of Easter eggs in there where people would look at the illustrated collage on the cover and try and figure out what all the references were.

Arthur Attwell 27:33
Yeah, they’re really beautiful. I could see, I’ve spent some time myself trying to spot all the references. A great find.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 27:39
Thank you.

Arthur Attwell 27:39
You worked on Thandiwe and the Inkanyamba, the South African retelling of the Princess and the Frog, for Roundafire. I was curious to know what it’s like illustrating a book when you know that book isn’t going to be on paper, like it’s going to be an app. Does that change the way you kind of think about book illustration? Or is it a book like any other?

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 28:00
Some of one, some of the other. I think one of the big differences designing for ereaders in general is that you can go a little bit more nuts with the colour, because if you like if you’re listening, and you’re designing, you know, so working in CMYK, you can’t go crazy bright with a lot of things if a book is just going to be printed by normal process printing method. So you’ll see it like Thandiwe and the Inkanyamba is pretty bright in a lot of places. I really enjoyed just working in an RGB space. So that’s a consideration. Also, like I am a bit of a different person to talk to in terms of book publishing as an industry in general, because I’ve worked mainly for nonprofit organizations and self published authors, I haven’t worked with major publishers. But what you learn from that is that if someone only has, say, R15,000 to have the book illustrated, and they’re paying for the entire thing out of pocket, you have to come up with a lot of really creative ways to save them money and spend less time on it. A lot of the time that involves having illustrations that are just a single spot colour, or like a really small one just on one page, instead of having full bleed on every single page. Obviously, if you’re e-publishing that just goes completely out the window and you can do whatever you want with the illustration because you don’t have to worry about how expensive the printing is going to get, which was really fun.

Arthur Attwell 29:22
I haven’t checked out the app, I should go and have a look and find it there. Well, Jess, thank you so much for spending some time talking about these things. I love the nerdy detail and the big picture stuff and love your work. I really appreciate you joining me here today.

Jess Jardim-Wedepohl 29:36
Thanks for having me. I look forward to listening to all the other episodes.

Arthur Attwell 29:40
Thank you for spending your time with us. You can be part of the show. Please send us your own book-making stories, topics and conundrums. You can do that at howbooksaremade.com. If you haven’t already, please subscribe in your podcast player and leave a review that really helps others find out about the show.

Arthur Attwell 29:58 How Books Are Made is supported by Electric Book Works, where my team and I make books all day, every day, in sunny Cape Town, South Africa.